those people who get paid a lot when a couple they set up gets engaged - are they obliged to give the money back if they break up? what's the protocol? does it go to the parents? all of the parents? the couple? whichever spouse had a worse time in the relationship? whichever spouse will have a harder time getting re-married?
also, what's protocol with couples returning gifts after a few months of marriage? does it matter if it's been used or not?
and really, who DOES get to keep the ring? does your answer change if it was a family heirloom? what if one them did something REALLY terrible, does the other one get to keep everything by default?
someone should institute an institute to ponder such deep questions.
1. 'A visitor' posted on the Thu 3 Mar 2005, 6:58 pm
ReplyDeleteThere is such an institute - divorce court.
But seriously, after my first marriage flamed out in under a year, the shadchan (a steriotypical old hungarian woman from Boro Park who lived in Miami, and who had basically demanded a cash payment upon the engagement) didn't return anything.
As for gifts, none were returned, as they were all pretty much used, or at least "open box" by then. My ex and I split our wedding money 50/50, and the gifts pretty much went according to whose "side" had given it.
When I got married again I told my all of my friends and relatives that there really was no need for them to give again. They all ignored me.
With respect to the rings, I got 'em back, not that it was ever a question.
My impression is that if you are settling things after a relatively short marriage in an amicable manner (and I'm not sure that in my case we were even semi-amicable by the time we were wrapping things up), the intention is to return each party, to the extent possible, to the state that they were in before they made their horrible mistake.
As for when one side does "something REALLY terrible", I don't think it makes much of a difference, at least in NY, where by definintion divorce can only occur where one party is at fault, and I'm not sure that a B"D draws such distinctions either. Practically speaking, what really makes a difference is which side wants to play dirtier.
Black Hatted Sheep
2. 'Dani Weiss' posted on the Thu 3 Mar 2005, 9:22 pm
ReplyDeletethanks for a well-thought out serious response to my musings.
it's sad that it often comes down to the playing dirty talents - the more people play dirty in a divorce, the more it will hurt them later in life, primarily in their ability to relate to and trust other people.
BHS - i hope things have gotten better, and i hope that they only continue to do so.
if you're not married yet, i hope you find someone great at the right time, and if you are married, i hope that the two of you have a beautiful wonderful (*trusting*) relationship.
: )
3. 'A visitor' posted on the Fri 4 Mar 2005, 12:14 pm
ReplyDeleteDear Abby and Ann Landers actually handled a lot of these kinds of things and now Judge Judy does a pretty good job. The ring question? Unless it was given as a gift for a specific event (Christmas is the biggest) it goes back. Most guys would tell you to just keep the thing but the protocol is to give it back. Gifts are supposed to be returned too but I think there's a time frame attached to that.
Z
4. 'A visitor' posted on the Fri 4 Mar 2005, 1:16 pm
ReplyDeleteI would think that under halacha, a wedding ring in particular should stay with the wife - it could not have been inteneded as a loan.
Whcih bring me to a correction to my earlier comment where I wrote "With respect to the rings, I got 'em back"; only the engagement ring was returned; I never even asked for the wedding band and it was not offered.
Also, watches, cufflinks and other jewelry given as gifts from one spouse to the other were returned.
When I later got enaged to my second and current wife (we've been together for >5 years by now, so yes Dani, things are infinitely better, and thanks for the sentiment), I actually had a jeweler take the stone from the first enagegment ring and put it in a new setting for her - after first checking to see if she had any objections to that. The old ring was just gathering duct in my safe deposit box, and it saved me the hassle of flipping it for a new on.
Black Hatted Sheep
5. 'Dani Weiss' posted on the Fri 4 Mar 2005, 1:28 pm
ReplyDeletere: what Z had to say - when i was in high scholl, my thenboyfriend gave me a ring (he called it an engaged to be engaged ring, i called it a really creepy gift). when we broke upi tried to give it back to himand he wouldn't take it.
the ONLY other thing i could have done with it at that point is sell it. and i didn't want to profit from it. i also didnt' want it around because really, the whole idea was just creepy.
i finally convinced him to take it back.
as far as re-setting the stone, i thin it's the smart thing to do. props to your wife for beaing adult about it and recognizing that it's the sentiment, not the stone taht counts. : )
6. 'A visitor' posted on the Mon 7 Mar 2005, 10:46 am
ReplyDeleteWell when I broke off my engagement, it seemed only proper to give him back the ring. So I did this, and honestly, I didn't really think twice about the other alternatives.
Over the course of the past year, though, I've been told by people much more knowledgeable than I that it is a gift and is therefore mine (both according to American and Jewish law).
Next time around, I think I'll keep the ring. Might as well get something out of what was a miserable breakup. :)
Mindy
7. 'Dani Weiss' posted on the Mon 7 Mar 2005, 11:24 am
ReplyDeletemindy -
next time around i hope it all works out and turns into a beautiful marriage and life.
: ) Hatzlacha!!!
8. 'A visitor' posted on the Tue 8 Mar 2005, 10:01 pm
ReplyDeleteYeah, that too. :)
Mindy